AF 447 - suite

[MdMax]

La réponse du BEA a le mérite d'être claire.

[xend]

Bah décidément, le Figaro ne sera plus crédible a mes yeux. C'était déja très limites par le passé mais la ils vont loin.

[MdMax]

Le Figaro continue de creuser, creuser, creuser... j'ai l'impression qu'il a déjà touché le fond, en tous cas il s'enfonce tellement que ça devient pathétique.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2011/05/17/01016-20110517ARTFIG00426-af-447-la-piste-d-une-erreur-de-l-equipage-air-france.php

[sixberas]

C'est vrai que nous sommes les meilleurs ! Non mais !

[PhM]

Le Figaro continue de creuser, creuser, creuser... j'ai l'impression qu'il a déjà touché le fond, en tous cas il s'enfonce tellement que ça devient pathétique.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...air-france.php

Ca va faire causer sur jumpseat.

PhM

Edit : Je viens d'aller voir, ben effectivement ça cause.

[xend]

Je suis très surpris, je sens dans ce topic un certain scepticisme concernant de grandes entreprises françaises, oui messieurs, françaises, dont l'intégrité ne peut être remise en question. Le Figaro nous informe depuis des décennies avec une objectivité et une intelligence que le monde entier nous envie et Airbus nous fait survoler les plus beaux paysages du monde, oui messieurs, du monde.

Je m'étais déjà étonné (post #47 de ce topic) que le Brésil souhaite que les boites noires-oranges soient "interprétées" ailleurs qu'en France. Les brésiliens savent pourtant que seule la France a les meilleurs experts, oui messieurs, les meilleurs experts du monde.

Et longue est la liste de preuves irréfutables concernant ce que nous pouvons considérer très simplement comme la supériorité naturelle du génie français, oui messieurs, du génie français. N'avons-nous pas les meilleurs écrivains (William Shakespeare, J. W. von Goethe, Leon Tolstoï, ...), chanteurs (Jacques Brel, Bob Dylan, ...), architectes (Ricardo Boffill, Leoh Ming Pei, ...), dessinateurs BD (Hergé, Charles M. Schulz, ...), etc, etc, etc.

Dois-je rajouter la gastronomie ? N'avez-vous pas encore remarqué que le monde entier mange français ? Que le monde entier a sans aucun scrupule copié nos plus belles créations culinaires: Sushis, Spaghettis, nems, pizzas, frites, couscous, etc, etc, etc.

Alors, je dis stop a ce scepticisme ... mais que font les modos, pourquoi n'interviennent-ils pas ???

T'as craqué ton slip toi?

[MdMax]

Cela se confirme... nouvelle annonce du BEA pour nous dire que demain on aura de la lecture:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/vol.af.447.php

[PhM]

Un rapport d'expertise est disponible dans cet article.

PhM

[sixberas]

trouvé sur "flight aware" ce matin


By ANDY PASZTOR And DANIEL MICHAELS

The pilots of an Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean two years ago apparently became distracted with faulty airspeed indicators and failed to properly deal with other vital systems, including adjusting engine thrust, according to people familiar with preliminary findings from the plane's recorders.

The final moments inside the cockpit of the twin-engine Airbus A330, these people said, indicate the pilots seemingly were confused by alarms they received from various automated flight-control systems as the plane passed through some turbulence typical on the route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. They also faced unexpectedly heavy icing at 35,000 feet. Such icing is renowned for making airspeed-indicators and other external sensors unreliable.

View Full Image

Associated Press
Workers unload debris from Air France flight 447 in June 2009.


Ultimately, despite the fact that primary cockpit displays functioned normally, the crew failed to follow standard procedures to maintain or increase thrust and keep the aircraft's nose level, while trouble-shooting and waiting for the airspeed sensors and related functions to return to normal, according to these people.

Slated to be disclosed by investigators on Friday, the sequence of events captured on the recorders is expected to highlight that the jet slowed dangerously shortly after the autopilot disconnected. The pilots almost immediately faced the beginning of what became a series of automation failures or disconnects related to problems with the plane's airspeed sensors, these people said.

The crew methodically tried to respond to the warnings, according to people familiar with the probe, but apparently had difficulty sorting out the warning messages, chimes and other cues while also keeping close track of essential displays showing engine power and aircraft trajectory.

Spokesmen for Air France, a unit of Air France-KLM, and Airbus, a unit of European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co., have declined to comment on any details of the investigation. Airbus last week, however, issued a bulletin reassuring airlines that the preliminary readout of the recorders hasn't prompted any "immediate recommendation" regarding the safety of the global A330 fleet. French investigators, who gave the green light for that statement, also have said their preliminary findings don't highlight any major system failures or malfunctions that could have caused the fatal dive.

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The Air France pilots were never trained to handle precisely such an emergency, according to safety experts and a previous report by France's Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses, which is heading up the investigation. All 228 people aboard Flight 447 died in the accident.

The senior captain, Marc Dubois, appears to have been on a routine rest break in the cabin when the fatal chain of events started, according to safety experts familiar with the details, but the cockpit-voice recorder suggests he may have rushed back to the cockpit to join the other two Flight 447 pilots.

Though Friday's announcement won't provide final conclusions or specific causes, investigators believe Air France didn't train its pilots to cope with such automation problems in conjunction with a high-altitude aerodynamic stall, an emergency when the wings lose lift and the plane quickly becomes uncontrollable. Since the crash, Airbus and a number carriers, including Air France, have emphasized such training.

According to a report issued by French investigators in November 2009, Airbus identified 32 instances involving similar model jetliners between 2003 and 2009 in which external speed probes, known as pitot tubes, suffered ice buildup at high altitude and caused "erroneous air speed indications." Over the years, the same models also suffered numerous failures of external temperature-sensors because of icing. Both issues were known to Air France.

Most of the incidents with speed sensors involved probes similar to those on the A330 that crashed. Many were on Air France planes, according to the BEA report.

Friday's update follows sniping between senior officials of Air France and Airbus, usually close corporate allies, who in this case have tried to shift the blame for the accident to each other.

Air France began addressing problems with its pitot tubes almost a year before the crash. Amid several incidents in which air crews lost speed indication at high altitude during 2008, Air France reported the icing problems to Airbus. The two companies discussed solutions and Airbus talked to its supplier.

In April 2009, roughly 45 days before the crash, Airbus proposed that Air France swap out its pitot tubes for a different model believed to be less prone to icing, according to the BEA report. Air France began the work on April 27, 2009, and it received the first batch of new pitot tubes six days before the crash. The plane that crashed hadn't yet received the new equipment.

According to the 2009 report published by investigators after the crash, experts examined 13 other incidents of airspeed-sensor malfunctions on Airbus widebody jets at cruise altitudes. During most of those global incidents—none of which resulted in a crash—both the autopilots and automated engine-thrust systems disconnected on their own, and it took many of the flight crews up to a minute to manually adjust engine thrust.

The earlier report found that pilots in nine of those 13 events received warnings of an impending stall. And in a finding that may have particular relevance to the upcoming update, accident investigators in 2009 also concluded that when airspeed-sensor malfunctions kick off automated thrust controls, "the absence of appropriate manual adjustments" to engines "can present a risk" of a mismatch between power settings and the jet's orientation in the air.

Investigators began focusing on pitot problems from the start, because Flight 447's automated maintenance system broadcast 21 separate messages related to such malfunctions during roughly the last four minutes of the fatal flight. But the final report, which may not be released until 2012, also is expected to delve deeper into how European air-safety regulators dealt with persistent reports of pitot-tube icing prior to the crash.

The previous interim report indicated that in late March 2009, less than three months before the crash, European aviation regulators decided that the string of pitot-icing problems on widebody Airbus models wasn't serious enough to require mandatory replacement of pitot tubes.

[MdMax]

Source BEA ce matin:

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.enquete.af447.27mai2011.fr.pdf

[MdMax]

Le troisième rapport d'étape du BEA sera publié le vendredi 29 juillet 2011. Ce rapport présente les circonstances exactes de l'accident avec des premiers points d'analyse et de nouveaux faits établis à partir de l'exploitation des données des enregistreurs de vol.

A cette occasion, un point presse sera organisé au BEA à 14 h 30 le même jour.

http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/com25juillet2011.fr.php

[obiwan59]

Donc on devrait savoir la cause définitive du crash demain. Nul doute qu'Airbus, Air France et d'autres préparent déjà leurs arguments pour se défendre (si nécessaire).

[MdMax]

Donc on devrait savoir la cause définitive du crash demain.

Attention, dans la publication de demain il n'est pas encore question de causes et encore moins de "causes définitives". Là on aura les circonstances exactes de l'accident.

[PhM]

Faudra quand même expliquer pourquoi 3 pilotes expérimentés n'arrivent pas à sortir de ce "décrochage" ... Avaient-ils le minimum d'infos (paramètres & instruments) pour le faire ... et si oui, ces infos étaient-elles réellement fiables ou erronées ?

C'est tout ce qui faisait l'intérêt des discussions à ce sujet sur feu radiococo.

PhM

[leglaude_]

Faudra quand même expliquer pourquoi 3 pilotes expérimentés n'arrivent pas à sortir de ce "décrochage" ... Avaient-ils le minimum d'infos (paramètres & instruments) pour le faire ... et si oui, ces infos étaient-elles réellement fiables ou erronées ?

faut pas oublier les conditions météo.
Les sondes givrées, mais les ailes aussi et le de-ice n'est pas efficace sur tout le profil de l'aile.
Pas évident de savoir quelle quantité de givre il y avait a ce moment là.
données fausses ou pas tu ne vole plus s'il y a trop givre.
A moins d'envoyer les hôtesses gratter la glace sur les ailes je vois pas.